Hi everyone,

I am looking for ways to practice understanding r-isation. When I practice here at skritter I mostly here the words without the r-isation at the end and this doesnt help me to understand chinese people who use a lot of r-isation.

Any tips and suggestions of how I can practice this?

Best wishes,
雅各布

There are some good links in the Wikipedia article:

http://ocw.mit.edu/ans7870/21f/21f.102/s06/audio/Unit%205.15%20Pronun%20erhua.mp3
http://www.sinoglot.com/bjs/2008/01/does-the-beijing-r-mean-anything/

I'm not sure how you would practice. Maybe listen to non-儿化 words and try to convert them into 儿化, and vice versa?

The problem with 儿化 is that it is very informal. That is why you rarely hear it on TV or read it in books. Some 儿化 is proper and standardized. Other 儿化 isn't, but is nonetheless commonly said. With that said, there does seem to be a pattern to the improper kind. The proper kind has three rules that govern it. You can't just stick an 儿 on anything and have it sound right.

饭馆儿 (improper but common)is my most commonly spoken 儿化 word. My current teacher, who is actually a southerner who has spent the last 5 or so years living in the north, loves 本儿 (improper but common).

I remember going over the formal rules of when you could 儿化. Some of the examples given were rather strange to my teacher who was going over the rules with me. We were using her old grad-school text book. Even in the north they didn't use some of the 儿s EVEN THOUGH THEY WERE LEGAL. This was a separate teacher who was born and raised in 山东。

I am afraid I can't offer any good tips for practicing the 儿化 except for finding yourself some northerners to chat with. If I may ask, why are you trying to master that aspect of Chinese?

@jww1066 - That last article you linked to is a really good one. In example 5 for 汤儿 he used 人儿. I don't recall often hearing people putting the 儿 on 人. That one leaves me slightly perplexed， but oh well. I also liked his comments about the ng+儿. I still have a hard time saying 杏儿 properly.

Thank you both and thank you for sharing with us the link jww1066, I thought it was really interesting but I am not sure I have gotten any smarter. Like you say west316 there does not seem to be any rules that apply to real life. Here on Skritter I have only come across 一点儿 so far with 儿化.

To answer your question west316. I started studying chinese three months ago and we are currently practicing our pronounciation. Our teacher is a southerner and only teaches us how to speak without 儿化. In January we are going to have our test on pronounciation which is going to be to listen to an audiofile with random sentences. Our job is going to be to write down (without tones) the words we think we hear. This in itself is difficult for me since the words are going to be random and I am not going to know them beforehand. However whats more is that the person speaking on the audiofile is going to be a northerner who uses lots of 儿化 since our teacher thinks its important for us to be able to understand it apart from 普通话.

Sorry. I apparently wasn't clear in my earlier post. I meant there IS a pattern. I.E. there are rules, albeit the informal 儿化's are kind of hard to pin down.

With that said, now that I understand your situation, maybe I can be of a little help. First of all, I need to say that this area of Chinese is my pet peeve. The other day, someone went a little off during the death of characters thread. Someone managed to hit his nerve. The 儿 is mine. I put that disclaimer up front, but let me also say that all I am about to say I will try to back up with sources.

If you are doing this test in China, then you probably will only hear standardized 儿s on your test. Southerners HATE the 儿. They underemphasis it as much as possible. If they are a teacher, they are still teaching proper 普通话, though. The problem comes in when you have two different standardized phraseology that are both legal. For example, both 哪儿and 哪里 are both legal. That hasn't stopped southerners from getting in my face trying to get me to say 哪里 instead of 哪儿. I suspect your teacher has just been avoiding the 儿s. That means you will PROBABLY be only getting standardized 儿s on your test. Your teacher's gut reaction may be that this is serious 儿化 but I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out to just be proper 普通话. With that said, here are the three rules for the standardized 儿 according to 现代汉语 as printed in a grad-school textbook for mainland linguists：

1）区别词义 Differences in meaning

例如：头-头儿 The first one means head. The second means boss.
眼-眼儿 The first means eyes but the second means a small hole.

2）区分词性 Changing the role in a sentence (Noun-verb, etc.)

例如： 画-画儿 The first one is a verb and the second is a noun.

3）表示细小，亲切或喜受的感情色彩 This one is slightly more complicated. Basically, if it is small, cute, or you are very fond of it, you add the 儿 to express that.

例如：小孩儿


Those are the big three rule wise. With that said, there are a few additional words, but they are rare. A good example would be 点儿. These words are proper 普通话, but there are other ways to say the idea without using the 儿, so southerners avoid them.

I don't know if this will help or not, but I hope it does. It is always possible that I am wrong and you get given an audio file from a hard core uneducated Beijinger using a ton of improper 儿s, but I would be surprised.

(Please don't take anything I have written as an insult to either your teacher or any southerners. They just tend to have culture clash over this issue.)

My problems with 儿化 words are slightly different. It’s about when the character 儿 is 儿化’d. The words 月儿 and 门儿 are two examples. In some cases they are read as [yuer] and [menr] , while in other cases, they are read as [yue’er] and [men’er], that is, they appears as two separate characters and not 儿化’d.

Another problem is that the character 儿 is usually not explicitly written out. For example, even though 整天、 半天 and 整天儿、半天儿 are different things, but the character 儿 is usually omitted when they are written out. So, this present a problem in prose reading as one has to be alert enough to detect when to add the missing 儿 in order to convey the appropriate meaning.

simple advice: listen to lots of 北京相声, nowhere heard more of it (you probably need to stroll along some 胡同儿 for that).

Baidu has an interesting list on pinyin rules and more: http://baike.baidu.com/view/312584.htm.

(1.)
　　a→ar：哪儿nǎr 手把儿shǒubàr
　　ia→iar：叶芽儿yièyár 钱夹儿qiánjiár
　　ua→uar：画儿huàr 浪花儿lànghuār
　　o→ou：粉末儿fěnmòr 竹膜儿zhúmór
　　uo→ror：眼窝儿yǎnwōr 大伙儿dàhuǒr
　　e→er：小盒儿xiǎohér 硬壳儿yìngkér
　　ue→uer：主角儿zhǔjuér 木橛儿mùjuér
　　ie→ier：石阶儿shíjiēr 字帖儿zìtiěr
　　u→ur：泪珠儿lèizhūr 离谱儿lípǔr
　　ao→aor：小道儿xiǎodàor 荷包儿hébāor
　　ou→our：老头儿lǎotóur 路口儿lùkǒur
　　iao→iaor：小调儿xiǎodiàor 嘴角儿zuǐjiǎor
　　iou→iour：小球儿xiǎoqiúr 顶牛儿dǐngniúr

(2.)
　　i→ier：锅底儿guōdǐr 柳丝儿liǔsīr 玩意儿wányìr
　　ü→üer:ih 小曲儿xiǎoqǔr 毛驴儿máolǘr 有趣儿yǒuqǔr

(3.)
　　ai→ar大牌儿dàpáir 窗台儿chuāngtáir
　　ei→er：同辈儿tóngbèir 宝贝儿bǎobèir
　　uai→uar：糖块儿tángkuàir 一块儿yīkuàir
　　uei→uer：口味儿kǒuwèir 一对儿yīduìr

(4.)
　　ai→ar大牌儿dàpáir 窗台儿chuāngtáir
　　ei→er：同辈儿tóngbèir 宝贝儿bǎobèir
　　uai→uar：糖块儿tángkuàir 一块儿yīkuàir
　　uei→uer：口味儿kǒuwèir 一对儿yīduìr

(5.)
　　an→ar：顶班儿dǐngbānr 传单儿chuándānr
　　en→er：亏本儿kuīběnr 命极儿mìnggēnr
　　ian→iar：鸡眼儿jīyǎnr 路边儿lùbiānr
　　in→iar：用劲儿yòngjìnr 手印儿shǒuyìnr
　　uan→uar：好玩儿hǎowánr 拐弯儿guǎiwānr
　　uen→uer：皱纹儿zhòuwénr 开春儿kāichūnr
　　üan→üar：圆圈儿yuǎnquānr 手绢儿shǒujuànr
　　ün→üer：合群儿héqúnr 花裙儿huāqúnr

(5.)

　　－i→er：找刺儿zhǎocìr 柳丝儿liǔsīr
　　－i→er：树枝儿shùzhīr 找事儿zhǎoshìr

(6.)

　　ang→?r：茶缸儿chágāngr 药方儿yàofāngr
　　iang
　　i?r:小羊儿xiǎoyángr 菜秧儿càiyāngr
　　uang→u?r：竹筐儿zhúkuāngr 门窗儿ménchuāngr
　　eng→（e上面小波浪）r：跳绳儿tiàoshéngr 竹凳儿zhúdèngr
　　裤缝儿kùfèngr
　　ong→（u上面小波浪）r：小洞儿xiǎodòngr 抽空儿chōukòngr
　　酒盅儿jiǔzhōngr
　　iong→ü（e上面小波浪）r：小熊儿xiǎoxióngr

The teacher in this video confirms west316's observations and offers some useful advice, e.g. on the difference between 门 and 门儿: http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/HTMOPrg6ziY/

Here are some pronunciations, similar to my last posting: http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/7nuO3C1EdKU/.

I'm in the anti camp, personally. If I see any 儿化 in my textbooks, I get irritated. I don't buy 一瓶儿水, I buy 一瓶水, I don't have to drink 药水儿 or eat 药片儿 when I'm sick, I have to drink 药水 or eat 药片. That's just my elitist 湖北人 take on it...

Thank you west316, your explanation helped! So far I have been tought 哪 but I haven't heard of 哪儿 or 哪里.Are you saying that 哪 does not exist on its own in speaking language?　In that case I am not so happy that our teacher hasn't mentioned this to us. By the way, are there many words like this that mean the same thing? It would be interesting to have a list like this to start skrittering on. Also, is the book called 现代汉语 where you found these rules?

pts, it would be really interesting if you could give two examples with 月儿 and 门儿. Does anyone know if there are any rules or patterns to this?

Your post mu'er 's(sorry I don't know how to write the traditional characters in your name on my computer)was exactly what I was looking for. Also, you mentioned 北京相声. When do you think a beginner like me should start watching tv-shows etc.? So far I know only about 200-300 characters, at best. I should also mention that I live in Sweden.

West316, to give you a better idea of what the test is like, here are a few links with the kind of sentences that he is going to be testing us on. Once again our job is to write in pinyin what we think we hear and the solutions are given in the documents.

A
https://gul.gu.se/public/pp/public_courses/course40430/published/1288705198834/resourceId/15918069/content/Mening1%EF%BC%8D3%EF%BC%8Da.pdf

B
https://gul.gu.se/public/pp/public_courses/course40430/published/1288705198834/resourceId/15918069/content/Mening1%EF%BC%8D3%EF%BC%8Db.pdf

C
https://gul.gu.se/public/pp/public_courses/course40430/published/1288705198834/resourceId/15918069/content/Mening1%EF%BC%8D3%EF%BC%8Dc.pdf

At first I didn't like 儿化 either. But after living in Western China for six months, let me tell you it ain't so bad.

I would trade 四川话 for 儿化 any day of the week.

现代汉语 is an organization. When I went looking for an authoritative source on Mainland Chinese, my teachers told me that was the group to turn to. It is my understanding, as far as China is concerned, it is the equivalent of an Oxford or Webster's. I don't know if Taiwan has their own or not. They produce dictionaries, textbooks, and other materials regarding 普通话.

哪 means which. 他想有哪只猫？ That would translate to, "Which cat would he like to have?". 哪里 literally translates to which place. 哪儿 is which plus that R sound meaning place， IN THIS CONTEXT。 儿 can have a ton of meanings. 那儿 means there. 那里 means there as well.

Please remember I am not an expert, but it has been my experience that, if there is an R way of saying things, there is PROBABLY a non-R as well. 事儿 is the first way I learned to say: a situation, matter, affair. Another way to say it is 事情. To be honest, even in the north, I didn't hear 事儿 that often. It is my understanding they are pretty much synonymous, though. There are a few situations where you have to use the R, but no words are coming to mind off the top of my head.

I wouldn't be too upset with your teacher yet. It sounds like you really are a total beginner still. Your teacher will have to teach you either 哪里 or 哪儿. I don't believe there is any other common way of saying where. As for looking at your tests, I can't pull up the links. If this teacher is teaching you at a college, then he is probably a respectable teacher.

入境隨俗。 If you're up north, it's 哪儿 and simplified, if you're down in TW, HK, etc it's 哪里 and traditional. Wherever you go, you will have to do localization and adaptation, and that's a never-ending process. I got my first education in Taiwan, and later got irritated by simplified characters and 儿化 when I moved to mainland. When I came back to Taiwan two years after, I had to remember all the traditional characters and non-pǔtōnghuà pronunciations again and that irritated me at that moment.

Now, I have resigned to accept the diversities of this world. I'm learning both traditional and simplified and when I meet somebody from region X I just respect their customs in their own right. 發酵 is fājiào in mainland and it's fāxiào in TW; one human says 地铁, another human says 捷運. That's just the way it is. Whatever you do, don't get irritated by the differences between humans.

@Yagebu, you are ready for watching television/movies or reading books whenever you're not getting bored when you do so. Boredom is a warning signal from your brain that you're not having fun; not having fun equals not learning. If you have fun you learn much, much more. So... Just go ahead and watch stuff, if it's too hard try to find easier stuff.
When you find something in Chinese you enjoy doing, you found your sweet spot. Just keep watching/reading/skrittering and you'll improve quickly.

When I learned 月儿, I was told that it is read as [yuer]. I speak all the月儿’s as [yuer] ever since and can’t remembered have ever been corrected for this. Then I heard the song月儿像柠檬 by 邓丽君 and found that that月儿 is read as [yue’er]. At first, I thought that it’s only because it is in a song. But no, even the title of that song is read as [yue’er]. Then another song月儿弯弯照九州 is read in the similar way. Along with these findings, I was also told that the words like 门儿、鸟儿、花儿 。。。are sometimes not 儿化’d. That门儿 was corrected by my teacher when I was reading 红楼梦 aloud in class. There seems to be some rules, but to me, they seem to be conflicting with one another and I’ve never figured out how they work together.

@Yagebu, I am also from Sweden. If you have a Satellite dish you can easily get CCT4 and Phoenix to your TV. Those programs are always sub titled(you can choose to have them hidden on most TV sets). It does help very much for me to just sit and watch/listen to the news, all sort of movies, and naturally children's programs. Some of the shows you can also watch on the net. Most soap operas are available on the net. For me it works best with news. They speak not to fast, usually clear and with a "standard" pronunciation. And I get my daily dose of propaganda. Not really fair but sometimes it is fun to watch and compare to western angels on the topics. Like yesterdays elections in Myanmar (Burma).

@Mandarinboy, I saw an english version of CCTV once and found it really interesting in terms of understanding chinese current affairs. Watching the news in chinese, with swedish/english subtitles would be fantastic considering I already learnt how to speak french this way. In think we have Canal Digital and perhaps its possible to get CCT4 on that. I will definately check! Btw, where in Sweden are you situated and are you currrently studying any chinese?

@William, I completely agree that getting annoyed with the differences won't help if you want to learn a language properly. After all the exceptions define the rule. Speaking of traditional characters, I still haven't figured out a way that I can study the traditional characters in skritter (I am fairly new to all of this). If I have a word that has been simplified, then I would like to be able to study that words traditional. Like for example 饭 where the left side has been replaced.

@pts, in any language the singed words are often times different to the spoken words and perhaps yue'er simply sounds better together with the accompanying music. I am just speculating.

@west316, I certainly am a total beginner and I feel its really exciting times! However, sometimes it can be frustrating and at those times I think I have a tendency to blame things on my teacher ;) In actual fact Im sure he is a very good teacher, its just me that needs to work harder at it.

@west316, Perhaps this works

https://gul.gu.se/public/pp/public_courses/course40430/published/1288705198834/resourceId/15918069/content/Mening1-3-a.pdf

https://gul.gu.se/public/pp/public_courses/course40430/published/1288705198834/resourceId/15918069/content/Mening1-3-b.pdf

https://gul.gu.se/public/pp/public_courses/course40430/published/1288705198834/resourceId/15918069/content/Mening1-3-c.pdf

I notice myself now that it doesn't work but instead I managed to convert the pdf into text. I am curious what anyone makes of this in terms of r-isation:






NI XIHUAN CHI CAI MA?

TA HUISHUO FAWEN MA?

他会说法文吗？

Ni xiangbuxiang ni pengyou

Ni xiangbuxiang ni nupengyou

你想不想你朋友。

Ta yinggai kan huir shu

他应该看会r书。

Wo zhi he yidianrdianr jiu

我只喝一点点酒。

Ni xihuan kan dianshi ma? 你喜欢看电视吗？
Deguoren dou huishuo faguohua ma? 德国人都会说法国话吗？
Shanghairen, beijingren ta dou bushi. 上海人，北京人他都不是。
Wo yinggai xiexie ta

我应该谢谢他

ta huizuo waiguocai ma? 他会做外国菜吗？
Jintianr wanshangra bu chifan

今天晚上不吃饭。

Tamen xihuan kan shenme shu? Wenxue shu

他们喜欢看什么书？／文学书。小人r书 zhe chahuahui yidianr dou buhao 这茶话会一点都不好

俄国人，俄国话＝俄语 俄罗斯 德国人，德国话＝德语，德国 英国人，英语，英国（大不列颠） 法国人，法语，法国 美国人，美语，美国 日本人，日语，日本

Ni nar ren?/ ni shenme difang ren?
你哪人？／你什么地方人？

Ni gai haorhaor xiangyixiang
你该好好想一想。 好点！好好的！

Ta bushi shanghairen, ye bushi beijingren 他不是上海人，也不是北京人。

Nin diandianr shenme jiushui? 您点点r什么酒水dryck

ta mang shenme ne? Ta zuo shui ne
他忙什么呢？他做水呢

chidianr! Zheicai hao chi
吃点r！这菜好吃！ 吃好，喝好！

Nin guixing? Miangui xing zhang
您贵姓？免贵姓张。

Ni jiao shenme? Nei guoren a
你叫什么？哪国人啊？ 我叫马丁
马丁叫我。
Ta bu ai jian shengren
他不爱见生人

T3＋T3——T2＋T3
Tonsandhi

Bu4＋T1——Bu4＋T1
Buban， bugao，bubang，buxiang
Bu4＋T2——Bu4＋T2
Bulai，butao，bumang
Bu4＋T3——Bu4＋T3
Bulao，buhao， Bu4＋T4——Bu2＋T4
Buqu，butai，bupa

Ta shi tongzhi ma
他是同志吗？

Zhe＝zhei，na＝nei


Zhei xiansheng yidianr dou buhao
这先生一点都不好

kafei gui haishi cha gui
咖啡贵还是茶贵？

Ni yinggai hedianr jiu
你应该喝点酒。

Jiao yixia nei xiansheng
叫一下那先生！
ni shi ……ren

jin’r tian’r zhen hao
今天r天r气真好！

Ni xiang shangxue ma? 你想上学吗？ T3＋T3——T2＋T3

Dianshi zhen haokan
电视真好看！

Ta sh kan ming
Ch
Zhi
Meinü
他只看美女。Zherenr,zhi kan laowai, 这人只看老外不看中国人。

Wenwen ta shibushi meiguoren 问问他是不是美国人？ 问问他他是不是美国人？
他 是美国人
他 不是美国人
他 是美国人吗？ 他是不是美国人？

Xiaowang tajie henleng ma
Lao 小王r他姐 xiaowangs syster 小王r他姐 syster xiaowang
她，小王姐，hon syster xiaowang
小王太太，我姐，我我姐

zhei ruidian xuesheng hen xihuan xue zhongwen 这瑞典学生很喜欢学中文。

Tianr zao ne！zai zuo huir

天r早呢！再坐会r

zheilaotaitai zhi he cha bu he kafei 这老太太只喝茶不喝咖啡。老头r

zhe jiuba jiao huantianxidi
这酒吧叫“欢天喜地”
ni tong nage laowai chichifan, hehejiu, shuoshuohua
你同那个老外，吃吃饭，喝喝酒，说说 话

ta shige laobeijingren,hen ai shuohua 他是个老北京人r，很爱说话。

@Yagebu I am from Göteborg but are constantly expelled by my company to Asia so I operate mostly from Japan/China/India. Currently a year in Japan where I actually keep on studying Chinese. Will move to Hangzhou China after this session.

Expelled :) I am looking to do something similar in the future but before that I will hopefully study my masters in China somewhere. I am also from Gothenburg and I am currently studying at Gothenburg University.

I just returned from a few weeks in Nanjing followed by a few weeks in Beijing. I fared much better in the former than the later its as if Beijing is in another country. It seemed that the older male speakers were the most incomprehensible.

I now clearly see how much work lies ahead to a get a true handle on this incredible language.